- - -, B-Greek, , 30 Apr 2005 Wilson Hines, I Tim 3.16: Why "seen of Angels"; "OPSTHE ANGELOIS" Why wouldn't most translations use something other than "seen?" I understand that the DBL defines it first by "see," however the other definitions are:
1. Pay attention to.
5. Learn about
6. Cause to happen
The BDAG, of course, goes into much more detail, but still supports my personal thoughts here. The reason, I ask why "seen," as the KJV, NIV and NKJV puts it, is because
the Angels have "seen" Him since their creation. My further thoughts are:
1. They would "Pay attention to" Him. I.e., Attend or serve.
2. They would "Understand" Him. They aren't omniscient, so after the cross and His resurrection they possibly could see Him in a different light, or become more "understanding" of Him and His role.
3. They could "visit" him.
4. They could "experience," that in itself is a word with a whole range of meaning.
5. They could "Learn more about", ie. No. 2.
6. But, they can't "Cause to happen." He is omnipotent.
- Carl W. Conrad; The "passive" WFQH normally carries an intransitive sense "appeared"--
this is really a standard sense. In view of this narrative credal sequence with a sort of homoeoteleuton of verb-forms in -QH, it is reasonable to want to give a passive sense to WFQH here. In view of the Christological confessional sequence here I think that this WFQH
refers to the risen and exalted Christ.
- - -, B-Greek, , 3 May 2005 Steven Lo Vullo; I don't have DBL, so I will base my comments on BDAG and L&N. BDAG actually doesn't support your thoughts with regard to this usage of hORAW in 1 Tim 3.16. Rather, 1 Tim 3.16 is listed as an example under A.1.d. Note that A.1 pertains to instances of hORAW dealing with perception of the eye. Subsection d deals with passive forms with an active sense, although I think Carl's terminology, i.e., an "intransitive sense," is more accurate. There we find the glosses "become visible, appear." Noted also is that with the dative complement the idea is an appearance *to* someone. For 1 Tim 3.16 it says, "the triumphant Christ appears to the angelic powers." (More on this below.)
> The reason, I ask why "seen," as the KJV, NIV and NKJV puts it, is because the Angels have "seen" Him since their creation. My further thoughts are:
But, as Carl and BDAG point out, what is in view here in this Christological confessional context is the *risen* Christ. Surely we should compare this text with the exact same form and construction found several times in 1 Cor 15:
v. 5 WFQH KHFAi
v. 6 WFQH EPANW PENTAKOSIOIS ADELFOIS
v. 7 WFQH IAKWBWi EITA TOIS APOSTOLOIS PASIN
v. 8 WFQH KAMOI
Jesus, of course, had been seen on many, many occasions by Cephas, his apostles, and others. But it is the special post-resurrection appearances that are here in view. I think it is the post-resurrection Christ who is also in view in 1 Tim 3.16, and that BDAG is correct in saying that the appearance in 1 Tim 3.16 is of "the triumphant Christ .... to the angelic powers." Of course the angels had seen Christ since their creation, but he certainly hadn't appeared to them in his resurrection glory until after his actual resurrection. The point in 1 Tim 3.16, I think, is that angels, such important and glorious beings (see 1 Tim 5.21), were witnesses of the resurrection. This fact lends authority to the gospel, just as the mention of angels in 1 Tim 5.21
lends authority to Paul's charge. Here are all of the other examples of this construction in the GNT:
Matt 17.3 WFQH AUTOIS MWUSHS KAI HLIAS
Mark 9.4 WFQH AUTOIS HLIAS SUN MWUSEI
Luke 1.11 WFQH ... AUTWi AGGELOS KURIOU
Luke 22.43 WFQH ... AUTWi AGGELOS AP' OURANOU
Luke 24.34 WFQH SIMWNI (cf. 1 Cor 15.5)
Acts 2.3 WFQHSAN AUTOIS ... GLWSSAI hWSEI PUROS
Acts 7.2 hO QEOS THS DOXHS WFQH TWi PATRI ABRAAM
Acts 7.26 WFQH AUTOIS
Acts 7.30 WFQH AUTWi ... AGGELOS
Acts 7.35 AGGELOU TOU OFQENTOS AUTWi
Acts 9.17 IHSOUS hO OFQEIS SOI
Acts 13.31 hOS WFQH ... TOIS SUNANABASIN AUTWi
Acts 16.9 hORAMA ... TWi PAULWi WFQH
Acts 26.16 WFQHN SOI
Heb 9.28 OFQHSETAI TOIS AUTON APEKDECOMENOIS
Note that in every case except one (Acts 7.26), a supernatural appearance to another or others is in view. In every case the person or thing(s) appearing is the subject of the passive verb, and the person or persons to whom someone or something(s) appears is in the dative
case. It seems to me that 1 Tim 3.16 should be taken in the same way.
> 1. They would "Pay attention to" Him. I.e., Attend or serve.
As BDAG B.2 points out, this usage has to do with being alert or on guard, not with service. Moreover, when used in this sense, hORAW is transitive, followed by the aorist subjunctive or MH and the aorist subjunctive or MH and the imperative or is used with APO. None of these conditions exist in 1 Tim 3.16.
> 2. They would "Understand" Him. They aren't omniscient, so after the cross and His resurrection they possibly could see Him in a different light, or become more "understanding" of Him and His role.
BDAG, under A.4, lists the definition, "to be mentally or spiritually perceptive," with the gloss "perceive." A.4.b deals with cognitive aspect. Here we have one example with a prepositional phrase and two with an accusative object. There is the example hOR. TWi LOGISMWi right after the definition in section A.4, but this seems to be a case of hORAW with an instrumental dative. L&N additionally has examples of indirect discourse (32.11).
> 3. They could "visit" him.
All the examples I have seen are transitive with accusative object. And what sense would this make in the context?
> 4. They could "experience," that in itself is a word with a whole range of meaning.
This would also fall under either BDAG A.3 or BDAG A.4. Section A.3 deals with experiencing a condition or event and is glossed "experience, witness." The NT examples are transitive with accusative object. And L&N claims that it is normally used in this sense in negative expressions indicating what one will *not* experience. Section A.4.a deals with sensory aspect. But notice that when used in this sense hORAW is transitive and is followed by an accusative participle or by an accusative and infinitive or by some form of direct or indirect question/discourse.
> 5. They could "Learn more about", ie. No. 2.
Not sure where this comes from. Can you think of an example where hORAW in the middle/passive -QH form means "learn more about"? The bottom line is that no middle/passive -QH forms of hORAW with a dative complement in the GNT seem to mean anything other than "to appear to someone." Even if we took these as true passives, the idea must be that the subject of the verb is seen by someone.
- Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, , Whether the angels know the mysteries of grace?
- Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, , Whether the articles of faith are suitably formulated?
- Vertaling Bijbel, Kanttekeningen SV, , En buiten allen twijfel, de verborgenheid der godzaligheid is groot: God is geopenbaard in het vlees, is gerechtvaardigd in den Geest, is gezien van de engelen, is gepredikt onder de heidenen, is geloofd in de wereld, is opgenomen in heerlijkheid.
35. Zo noemt de apostel de leer des Evangelies, gelijk hiervoor,
vs.9, de verborgenheid des geloofs, waarvan hij een korte som in
de volgende woorden voorstelt.
36. Dat is, de eeuwige Zoon Gods, gelijk dit woord God ook voor
God den Zoon gebruikt wordt; Joh.1:1; Hand.20:28; Rom.9:5;
1 Joh.5:20, en elders.
37. Dat is, is mens geworden, en heeft door woorden en werken Zijn
godheid bekend gemaakt. Zie Luk.24:19; Joh.1:14.
38. Dat is, in de menselijke natuur, die door Hem in enigheid des
persoons is aangenomen, gelijk Joh.1:14; Rom.1:3; Hebr.2:14.
39. Voor onschuldig en rechtvaardig erkend, gelijk Matth.11:19;
40. Of door den Geest. Hetwelk te verstaan is van de Goddelijke
natuur van Christus, waardoor Hij Zichzelf uit de doden heeft
verwekt, en volgens dien ook bewezen rechtvaardig en onschuldig te
zijn, hoewel Hij door de Joden en heidenen voor schuldig was
veroordeeld. Eenigen nemen het voor de gaven des Heiligen Geestes,
die Hij na Zijn verrijzenis op Zijn discipelen en andere gelovigen
heeft uitgestort. Dit komt met Paulus' doel niet overeen, daar
deze gaven des Heiligen Geestes eerst na Christus' verheerlijking
zijn gegeven, waarvan hij in het laatste lid spreekt, en wordt ook
het eerste met dergelijke wijze van spreken bevestigd; Rom.1:4;
41. Namelijk als Zijn dienaars en boden, zo in Zijn geboorte,
Luk.2:13, als in Zijn verzoeking, Matth.4:11, in Zijn lijden,
Luk.22:43, en in Zijn opstanding en hemelvaart, Luk.24:4;
42. Dat is, onder alle volken der wereld, zowel heidenen als
Joden; Rom.10:18; Kol.1:6.
43. Namelijk ter rechterhand Zijns Vaders, vanwaar Hij de gaven
Zijns Geestes in Zijn gemeente heeft uitgestort, en door krachten
en wonderen Zijn heerlijkheid heeft betoond; Mark.16:19,20;
Hand.1:2,8, en Hand.2:33, enz.
Mede mogelijk dankzij